(This is the second interview that our Hanoi-based contributor Vizzah Harri conducted with Downfall from the Vietnamese black metal band Dødssanger. Find the first interview here.)
Taken from Audio recorded in conversation on February 27th, 2024.
I first met Kyle Newman aka Downfall from Dødssanger when he was still a university student; he’s grown more in all aspects in the last 6 years than I’ve experienced growth over the last 2 decades. The conversation that follows was way more of a general discourse on the Hanoi scene, headphones, live shows and the writing process than an interview, whereas Part 1 was more formal, happened later and attempted to focus more on his stage persona Downfall and the project as such.
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Vizzah: One thing that has struck me is how much you’ve progressed. There are a couple of questions I wanted to ask regarding the album as far as writing is concerned. There is a line in Long Dream that seems like a direct homage to Apocalypticists of Kriegsmaschine. “Lost in Liminality”. And they’ve got a song called ‘Lost in Liminal’.
Kyle: I know, yeah. [vocalizes/growls] “Rite of passage gone wrong”
V: Haha, so, was it a reference or is it just that that is an easy thing to write about?
K: Because that’s what that is. It’s an easy thing to write. It’s interesting that you brought up Kriegsmaschine so early into the conversation, because here’s the deal.
When I did Long Dream, it was not that heavy on Kriegsmaschine. The later stuff would be more influenced by Kriegsmaschine, DeathSpellOmega, even like Sól án Varma. It’s a one-off project from D.G. from Misþyrming. Long Dream was more in the vein of traditional USBM, but also a little bit of like a Japanese influence, more dissonance, more jarring. And [as mentioned before], even the content of the track itself was like, straight homage to Junji Ito, the horror comicist and his story, Long Dream. It’s basically a retelling, but in my words.
V: It’s fan fiction.
K: Can it be considered fan fiction?
V: Fuck yes it can.
K: Because it’s basically a retelling of the story. But as I said in a conversation I had with Hiếu from House of Ygra, there is something very unrefined, very like personal when it comes to the first album.
V: It has to be. Also, you went for depressive black metal and going for DSBM you’re gonna wanna have certain, I don’t know, predispositions of sound?
K: And also, when it’s the first full-length you’re putting on Bandcamp, especially with the subject matter, it’s going to have some unrefinement and that’s important and good because that means looking forward, you’re looking for growth.
V: Yep. And that’s something else I wanna talk to you about. Because I feel other than you this whole House of Ygra thing going on and Mr. Nemo and Mr. Rogdan from Elcrost and now Blood Serpent too right?… Long’s an interesting cat.
K: Yeah, he is.
V: Because he went from doing basically Alcest worship [Edit: this is the plebian take, they very obviously draw from Opeth, Ulver and Agalloch too] with Elcrost’s initial output into Blood Serpent’s brutal blackened-death and I was like, fuck yes.
K: Haha yes!
V: That to me was ascending, his vocals. And watching you guys, I mean you did session live-musicianship for them and it was like you’re in the band. It was cool.
K: Because Dũng, he studies in Germany so he cannot play too often. When it comes to like Hanoi shows.
V: But he also writes with Long on Blood Serpent, right?
K: He wrote the drums and he wrote the bass, the bass entirely.
V: So, you played Dũng‘s bass-lines
K: Yeah. A very butchered version of it, but yes. ha-ha
V: (not getting the pun): I guess you could say that because you’re the musician, but as a person in the crowd: You guys were fucking good on the night. But you would know more than I would.
K: Yeah, thanks!
V: You and Long and Nemo played the drums, right [Edit: showing my ignorance of the Hanoi scene and that I had false memories from the show]?
K: No, no, the drums were programmed.
V: Oh, right, now I’m thinking of fucking Dødssanger. Who played drums for your show?
K: Phong played drums [from Vong].
V: So, Nemo, does he play or record for Blood Serpent or?
K: Nemo, Nam Anh lives full on in Germany. He’s done mixing and mastering for Rot, Blood Serpent, and Leukotomy, and he recorded, produced and played for Elcrost too.
V: Oh, snap, so while living in Germany he recorded his own stuff and released it through Ygra on BandCamp?
K: Yeah, because he’s close friends with Hiếu and he basically lives through the studio releases. That Lockeheart project.
V: Right, because he’s busy releasing the new Lockeheart vibe now [it got released on March 29th 2024].
K: Yeah, so that’s his studio-only album. He plays techno, basically how you would know Berlin or West German techno.
V: It makes sense for where he is and also… I had a buddy that was into dark techno.
K: Yeah.
V: And he was a cool guy, you’d have enjoyed him. He was an unassuming motherfucker.
K: Oh nice [in growl]. What happened to him?
V: Let’s just say he tipped over to the dark side as far as normal human interaction is concerned. This ain’t the place really, but it seemed like he was sharp as shit, though apparently listening exclusively to caveman dark techno and associating with alleged pederasts has the propensity to twist the mind. Guy loved to gobshite, so he ended up with a rather gnarly Glasgow smile and a Kleinmond Quart (something to do with a 750ml bottle where the sun don’t shine). Back before when he wore a warning label for his deviance he asked, “Harri, come on, play me some dark shit on the jukebox mate.” I played him Esoctrilihum.
K: Oh shit, good riddance.
V: He fucking loved it, not sure about his plastic surgery though. So, techno and metal, they’re not exclusively outside of each other.
K: Haha. That’s good. That’s good. Diversity is good. So going, because diversity goes back to Minh Long. We call him Minh Long because there’s more than one Long, the other one is called Guillotine in Blood Serpent. Yeah. So, he’s Hải Long, but the guy that…
V (interjecting): Hải means ‘Ocean’ basically, if he was a Hải Rồng, he would be Ocean Dragon.
K: Yeah, yeah haha. But this guy Minh Long. Talking about Minh Long being the lead vocalist for Elcrost, it’s actually Hiếu’s thing. So, he was a lot more romantic, it goes into a lot of European folklore. Blood Serpent gives Minh Long a space to embrace a darker, a more extreme side to him.
V: More extreme for sure. [But Elcrost are a band that dance the line of ebb and flow between melody and abrasion too].
K: Yeah, that is a big part of it. It’s awesome.
V: (digressing on another tangent): That Blood Serpent gig last year was awesome, because I listened to it a bit before I went to the show. I wasn’t aware of it too much before then. And then a lot of the time, what happens, you listen to an album and stuff sounds off if you don’t have the right equipment… I need to get my fucking Sennheiser’s fixed or get new ones because they took a shit. And JBL just does not work for metal.
K: It doesn’t.
V: It does fucking not. Even if you have two or three or four in sync, it’s made exclusively for electronic. Not that all electronic is bullshit because I mean, did you listen to Dødheimsgard’s fvcking album last year?
K: I actually listened to it last month. haha
V: It’s one of the best albums that came out last year and they incorporated it so seamlessly. But what I’m getting at is like, I got these cheapo – I fucking took the fall and got myself Bluetooth earphones, right? And I got cheapo ones which are clearer with a purer sound than JBL by a long shot. And the reason I was able to realize it is because of An Abstract Illusion’s [K rumbles in a laughing grin] album Woe from ‘22. There’s a song called ‘Slaves’. With good sound you can hear the organ coming through so clear. JBL fuck all.
K: Fuck all.
V: Like nothing, But the saving grace is Emile from Mischief & Mayhem Burgers
K: Oh yeah!
V: He has fairly nice speakers and a mixer for the events he does sometimes. While he was on holiday I had to water his plants. What’s the payment? I could use his speakers. That’s why I had to connect with the saint in Anonymous you hooked me up with, cos I broke the speakers in less than a week…[mysterious entity from somewhere in the North of former IndoChina that time-jumps and applies mana to ameliorate anything to do with sound].
K: Oh yeah Anonymous is a solid guy. Oh man. He fixes speakers and amps, for just about anyone. Back when I had my Behringer amp it was acting up. A lot of moisture. It has seen better days. And after a point it just didn’t work anymore. But I didn’t want to give up on it. It was a really good amp. So, I was like damn. Does anyone know any guy who can fix this up? And they pointed me to the mysterious entity, I went up there, got it fixed after a few days, worked like a charm. It was worth it.
V: And also meeting that guy come on.
Not Anonymous, Downfall
K: Yeah. So, the problem is that JBL is very bass heavy. It will sound great on some modern metal like if you’re talking about like Sleep Token.
V: Or what’s that band everybody fawns over. There’s some kind of core band that’s like insanely overproduced. And it was like people going “oh my god, the breakdowns, oh my gahd.”
K: Oh, yeah, I get it. You would hear everything on there because it’s overproduced. But An Abstract illusion: it’s technical in the sense that there’s a lot going on. And you’ve got sounds not drowned out but hidden in the mix coming up later. Different frequencies and therefore you need something of you know, sophistication.
V: Yeah. To hear it. What headphones do you use when you listen?
K: There’s this German band brand named Teufel.
V: Is it better than Sennheiser?
K: It’s relatively affordable. Sennheiser is very sterile.
V: In what way?
K: In a way that there are… the bands like the mid-ends, the low-ends, the high-end. Nothing stands out because that’s how it’s supposed to be.
V: It’s something that you use in a studio?
K: Yeah, it’s benchmark but Teufel is like…
V: How do you spell that? I want to write it down.
K: The devil in German. Teufel.
V: I don’t know German. Fuck. I might have ancestry from a Germanic country and speak a Germanic language but I don’t know how to fucking speak German.
K: Yeah. Teufel bro. And they make good-ass headphones.
V: I need to own this shit.
K: They probably made a deal with the devil to make it sound that good. But even though the build quality can be a little… The build quality is good but it’s not good enough to withstand abuse. That’s my advice.
V: Yeah. Now it’s good advice because I am an absolute fucking wreck-head. I don’t wear a watch because I break watches. Yeah. I break shit all the time. Look at my bike. It’s missing panels. Look at my… I even fuck up my body. Look at my finger.
K: Hahaha, So yeah. Teufel is not for someone who likes to give their stuff a beating. Even though the sound quality is superb. They’re like a generalist kind of brand. Yeah. It sounds… Anything sounds good on it. Like electronic, techno and stuff. But also, like Sulphur Aeon. And even like some of the more bestial black metal. It also sounds good.
V: Yeah?
K: Like there is this one Turkish band called Sarinvomit. Them and Profane Order sound good on that platform. Because Profane Order is like a very distorted produced kind of band. Also, Nihil Kaos. If you know Profane Order you know that their sound is very harsh. But it still sounds good on Teufel so I can vouch for that.
So that’s a headphone solution but the speaker solution I would say go for a cheap one. Like go for micro lab. ha-ha
V: Dude, my setup now, the closest neighbors that live there are at least like 50 to 60 meters away. Nobody’s ever complained. Also, you can’t knock on my door. There’s a fucking gate. There’s no bell. I don’t have a number. Damn. What are they, they’re gonna call the cops on me?
K: Nobody can complain. Got it. I guess they might be like, when you have a shop and weren’t able to pay. You sometimes see the old blood color paint thrown against the gate and it means fuck these guys. Yeah, that one’s marked.
V: Looking forward, do you have any aspirations?
K: Here’s the deal with hanging out with the Ygra guys, like it gives you an incentive, a very visible, tangible incentive to get started.
V: To lift your game, to keep lifting your game.
K: Yeah, super. Because they’re doing that and everybody’s kind of like pushing each other. That’s something.
V: I wanted to ask you, like I’ve had my misgivings about music and Hanoi, it’s been annoying. And I say music because that’s in general. Lots of cover bands…
K: Yep. It’s okay to do covers, but don’t be a cover band. You can start out doing covers and then making it your own. Yeah. And then doing other shit, but you’re just gonna be a cover band.
V: I’m sorry, but you’re selling yourself a short. Everybody starts, no matter what kind of writing you do, you try to emulate what you love.
K: Yeah. And from that you grow because you take from here, there, here, everywhere, and then you become whatever you want to do.
V: Yeah.
K: That was what the story was like for the Rêvasseur guys, it’s exactly what happened. During COVID, Liam wanted to have like an outlet, so they started doing some covers, like during the quarantine time, and then it became a full-fledged band. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
V: Yes, I agree. And as far as the metal was concerned, it was great to me that there was a small tight metal community. And I’m sure I come late in the game. I’ve only been here seven years, so things have been going on for a long time, but it felt a bit stagnant to me.
K: Exactly.
V: Maybe you felt the same thing, but like I felt that there used to be too much emulation going on.
K: The feeling is mutual.
V: And that there’s not a Vietnamese sound. [not for the lack of trying, Vietnam has a long history of metal music and more of its artists will be featured in the future]
K: Exactly.
V: It’s fucking pointless comparing to a country like Greece, which has a Greek sound. Or the Polish sound.
K: It’s distinctive.
V: However, I was like, let me eat my words for a second, because we are basically still in infancy
K: And that’s one of the epiphanies that came round, after House of Ygra did some stuff, we sort of realized, slowly but certainly realized; that when it comes to organizing a show, there’s a profound realization that the local kids will want to see local bands.
V: The local people want to see the local bands.
K: Unless it’s big enough or known enough.
V: And that’s something which would be awesome to get more bigger bands here. The issue is just having heard from smaller organizers across South East Asia, it’s nice getting bands here, but the locals have to pay. The local bands and their friends as a collective pay to get them here. It is either their flight or their accommodation or something, the bands expect to be treated like they’re in Europe and they don’t realize that it’s a small group of friends getting them here. I mean, the problem is the money. How the fuck do you get them here? So, we need production company money.
K: We just had the same problem with Wormrot actually because like, the Wormrot guys, are quite nice.
V: They’re super cool.
K: However, the organizer was not like their organizer. The guy who set them up to like play, they wanted us to fork out an absurd amount of money and what was it? A lot of stuff. Okay. But we reasserted ourselves. Because we’re not a fucking stadium.
V: Yes. We’re not the fucking Astoria, sorry, the Astoria in London. We’re not the Agora in Cleveland.
K: So we had come to an agreement. And in the end, it worked out fine.
V: Because you could see they were really happy to be here.
K: But the same case cannot be said about like Smallpox Aroma [Thailand] or like, Pure Wrath [Indonesia]. Yeah. Because like those guys are actually close friends with House of Ygra, or Hiếu. He is like a very well-connected guy. So, he would be friends with a lot of people. It’s what makes it easier to get them around here.
V: I’m not at all into organizing shows, but I did meet a lot of cool people when I went to Jakarta last year. This one guy, Hafiz, who’s got a label in Malaysia, with a fuck ton of black and death metal bands. He just organized a show in Malaysia with Blood Red Throne. It’s on the same weekend as Hammersonic though, so I can’t go. [Goatlordth Records] And I’m like, how about more collaboration between S.E.A. nations? I think they’d be down and then maybe getting some bands onto the big stage.
K: Oh yeah.
V: Would that not be amazing? In a year or two’s time, Vietnamese bands… at Hammersonic.
K: Imagine that. Imagine that. That’s on the cards, mate. I mean there were talks about getting this bigger band to play in Saigon a while back. However, they were afraid of a controversy, the timing was pretty bad.
V: Fuck. Oh well.
K: Yah, that’s the thing, like… It happens. It does happen. Yes. There are many cases where people are great musicians…
V: Yeah, I can think of many examples of great music being made by questionable people.
K: Okay, I can get behind your opinion. There’s also the poster boy for touchy subjects that really only is a clown.
V: Yeah. But a clown, not in the jester, joker sense that has you know, I’m gonna make fun of you like Dionysus, but still be wise and actually show you the wrong of your ways and parody you.
K: No.
V: He’s a clown in the other kinda sense.
K: Yeah, he’s like…
V: He’s like your drunk uncle that…
K: Goes on tirades
V: Racist tirades yeah. Back to non-inflammatory metal… And did you ever get into Malokarpatan?
K: Actually, did not
V: Okay, so before you listen to the 2023 album listen to Nordkapaterland. It is masterful, it’s so amazingly done for a folk black metal band, they bring the right kind of folk in and it’s just a very fun album to listen to, lots going on. But goddamn the new stuff is just from the start riffage. [and a massive Metallica Four Horsemen all chugga-chug-chug homage actually]
K: Let’s go! Send me that send me that!
V: Yeah, I’ll send it to you now.
K: Yes, oh another thing that I would like to mention in the vein of like good musician – shitty person, so it goes back to like a tangent that I’ve always been like pondering, that is: the art and…
V: The art versus the artist. It’s best not to know too much about any artist, or rather to idolize, because if you’re gonna start to idolize you Will be fucking disappointed.
K: Yeah.
V: …because they’re human.
K: They’re fucking human. Do their actions as people make us wanna stop listening to their music? Probably not. And that’s also the part where, not just in music, but also in life, where it is a constant reviewing and renewing and ridding oneself of things that no longer works for us, right?
V: But it’s sometimes good to make a big misstep and then being able to remind yourself.
K: That’s something to bounce back from.
V: Yes, it’s a dangerous kind of tap dancing of oh, I’m gonna get close to the line here I’m not gonna step on a landmine. Let’s see how close I can go.
K: Yeah, and then you overstep it and then when you bounce back to it there is a sense of like rejuvenation. You find a new clarity.
V: Splattered all over the place. Though in reality it is a good kind of mental growth you get. Which you did, so that’s nice.
K: You can be outraged by systems, but if you don’t realize that you have zero fucking traction…
V: There might be trouble, then you’re gonna put yourself or other people in there.
K: Yeah, so that’s the deal like, there’s always a smart way to do it, Ho Chi Minh talked about it. He discussed very thoroughly about our roles as intellectuals like “What do we do about the struggle?” He basically concluded that the action of change does not lie in the hands of intellectuals. The only thing we can do is to be a spiritual and intellectual comfort by giving insight. No more and no less, right? I’ve been reading Ho Chi Minh again and honestly; I did not understand it before because I was a little too young but now that I have become what I perceive of myself as a bit more mature I can read more deeply into it.
V: It resonates more deeply.
K: Definitely.
V: Back to more musical influences.
K: M, yes, like you mentioned earlier about Kriegsmaschine. It is an M project But the M project that I reference more was Mgła. If you hear the track Penance again, then the Mgła influence is very very strong
V: So outside of outside of them being a massive influence… other than saying okay, FFO, what would you say were your influences while you were writing before recording?
K: Xasthur was a prime influence as well as Nyktalgia.
V: I mean because they’re the more the depressive side of black metal, but it’s not always the case that you listen to the exact genre.
K: You’re fucking right. Yeah, exactly, you can get inspiration from anywhere. So later on, as I wrote I listened to less and less DSBM, but more traditional BM. But still, it’s purely the philosophy behind the concepts though. My way of approaching DSBM is similar to that, there is no clear and distinct sound as to what is DSBM, unless we’re talking about Nocturnal Depression or early Forgotten.
V: I mean there is an atmosphere and a feel to DSBM and there is also a pacing.
K: Yeah.
V: Like if I put on Reflection of a Wretched Soul. I know This is DSBM. I don’t have to go look at the lyrics for it.
K: It’s all about what kind of attitude you inject your music with because someone can proclaim that they make DSBM but if the attitude is not there, you’re gonna hear it. When I write, not just for Dødssanger, but just about anything else, even in my own like personal journal…
V: You’ve got another project don’tcha? It was called… it’s listed on Encyclopedia Metallum…
K: Gottbrecher
V: Was that the precursor for Dødssanger?
K: Yes, it was because almost if not all material that was released as Gottbrecher appeared on Dødssanger.
V: So, was it basically your having gone through a chrysalis?
K: Yeah, because I came to a realization that the name Gottbrecher, which means God-breaker, sort of has this mental image or a kind of expectation of what the ideology is behind the band. However, when you talk about Dødssanger, it has a different feel, in Norwegian it means songs of death.
V: Ah, I was under the impression it was German, which changes it to singer instead of songs. You’re the singer of the songs of death. ha-ha
K: Haha yeah. When I write songs of death it’s because everything leads to death. This allows me to write about self-destruction in a very philosophical way.
V: Is repetition something you think of or use in your writing process, to hammer an image or metaphor home? Like when you go philosophical you’ve got so much to work with.
K: Yes, so for example there is this name Amphigyḗeis which is another name of Hephaestus. The God of blacksmiths and who is essentially an unwanted son. It’s also a way of telling the lore of Hephaestus because he did glue Hera into her own throne, with magic.
V: He was a blacksmith sorcerer?
K: Right. He essentially got kicked out of Olympus by Hera and that is how he gained a limp. During his fall, he broke his leg. During his exile he learned the way of blacksmithing, eventually went back up to Olympus with a vengeance and then forged a magical throne to trap his mother.
V: And you brought that in?
K: Yeah
V: Then, as far as your process goes, words come first, music later?
K: Since the first album words have always come first.
V: You are aware that you’re not like many artists. I don’t know about people you know around, but a lot of artists write music first and then lyrics. It’s interesting to me then that you do it the other way around.
K: First because, for me personally there must be a process and there must be a concept. I ask what sound I would like to come out with this concept? That’s how it goes.
V: Sure.
K: Oh, for example with Long Dream, the words came out first and then the jarring instrumentals came out later. And say The Garden of Suicide is actually the polar opposite, where the music came up first and then I imagined what the words would be. As time progressed, I found myself to lean more towards coming up with a concept for lyrics initially and then music followed after. I consider myself to be a writer first, musician second.
V: Yeah, your writing definitely has improved a lot.
K: Thank you!
V: It’s cool to see.
K: Alright, this was fun, but time to head.
V: Ok, great to see you and thanks for the meetup!
K: Yeah, thanks!
https://dodssanger.bandcamp.com/album/reflection-of-a-wretched-soul
https://www.facebook.com/dodssanger.bm
https://open.spotify.com/artist/5qLltuPijAC3BfQEOIXUSI
https://music.apple.com/il/artist/d%C3%B8dssanger/1684133128
https://listen.tidal.com/artist/38980932
https://www.deezer.com/us/artist/211006707
https://houseofygra.bandcamp.com/merch